Are astronomers waiting to see something in an image from a gravitational lens that they've already seen in an adjacent image?Does gravitational lensing provide time evolution information?What percent of planets are in the position that they could be viewed edge-on from Earth? (and thus able to undergo transits)Telescope in Sun's gravity lens focus - pointing, gain, distortionsWith gravitational lensing, is it possible to mathematically compute the correct image of the galaxy that is being distorted?Does CIBER Experiment from Caltech suggest that there can be lots of stars which are not in any galaxy?Could the Earth use gravitational lensing / bending of light to see it's own bottom?Is cosmic shear generally agreed to have been observed?Making sense of the lomb-scargle periodogramWithin a given image of a multiple-image producing gravitational lens, does Fermat's principle apply?
Are astronomers waiting to see something in an image from a gravitational lens that they've already seen in an adjacent image?
Important Resources for Dark Age Civilizations?
Codimension of non-flat locus
Does an object always see its latest internal state irrespective of thread?
Which country benefited the most from UN Security Council vetoes?
Are the number of citations and number of published articles the most important criteria for a tenure promotion?
Has there ever been an airliner design involving reducing generator load by installing solar panels?
dbcc cleantable batch size explanation
What would happen to a modern skyscraper if it rains micro blackholes?
Alternative to sending password over mail?
Is it inappropriate for a student to attend their mentor's dissertation defense?
How to determine what difficulty is right for the game?
How does one intimidate enemies without having the capacity for violence?
Theorems that impeded progress
Why "Having chlorophyll without photosynthesis is actually very dangerous" and "like living with a bomb"?
Why can't we play rap on piano?
What's that red-plus icon near a text?
How much of data wrangling is a data scientist's job?
If human space travel is limited by the G force vulnerability, is there a way to counter G forces?
Can an x86 CPU running in real mode be considered to be basically an 8086 CPU?
What's the point of deactivating Num Lock on login screens?
Could an aircraft fly or hover using only jets of compressed air?
What does the "remote control" for a QF-4 look like?
Is it possible to run Internet Explorer on OS X El Capitan?
Are astronomers waiting to see something in an image from a gravitational lens that they've already seen in an adjacent image?
Does gravitational lensing provide time evolution information?What percent of planets are in the position that they could be viewed edge-on from Earth? (and thus able to undergo transits)Telescope in Sun's gravity lens focus - pointing, gain, distortionsWith gravitational lensing, is it possible to mathematically compute the correct image of the galaxy that is being distorted?Does CIBER Experiment from Caltech suggest that there can be lots of stars which are not in any galaxy?Could the Earth use gravitational lensing / bending of light to see it's own bottom?Is cosmic shear generally agreed to have been observed?Making sense of the lomb-scargle periodogramWithin a given image of a multiple-image producing gravitational lens, does Fermat's principle apply?
$begingroup$
@RobJeffries' answer to the question Does gravitational lensing provide time evolution information? points out that there can be a substantial different in arrival times of light from a given source seen in different images from a gravitational lens.
The linked paper there shows "$Delta t$" values of the order of 30 days, but it is hard for me to understand what the actual observable is.
What I'm asking for here is (ideally) if there is a well defined event that a lay person could understand, something blinking or disappearing or brightening substantially that has already been seen in one image produced by a gravitational lens that has not yet been seen in one of the other images, and is expected to be seen in the (presumably near) future.
If something like this does not exist, a substitute could be a case where this has happened, and the second sighting of the same event was predicted, waited for, and observed on time.
I have no idea if this happens all the time, or has never happened yet.
observational-astronomy gravitational-lensing
asked 16 hours ago
uhohuhoh
6,98522173
$endgroup$
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
@RobJeffries' answer to the question Does gravitational lensing provide time evolution information? points out that there can be a substantial different in arrival times of light from a given source seen in different images from a gravitational lens.
The linked paper there shows "$Delta t$" values of the order of 30 days, but it is hard for me to understand what the actual observable is.
What I'm asking for here is (ideally) if there is a well defined event that a lay person could understand, something blinking or disappearing or brightening substantially that has already been seen in one image produced by a gravitational lens that has not yet been seen in one of the other images, and is expected to be seen in the (presumably near) future.
If something like this does not exist, a substitute could be a case where this has happened, and the second sighting of the same event was predicted, waited for, and observed on time.
I have no idea if this happens all the time, or has never happened yet.
observational-astronomy gravitational-lensing
asked 16 hours ago
uhohuhoh
6,98522173
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
FWIW, this kind of thing is a bit easier in radio astronomy. I've been looking for a good relevant article, but without success, but I've only been looking for stuff on HTML pages, not PDF links. I read about it years ago, with the astronomer comparing tapes of radio data, with a time delay of several months, but I can't remember where I read it.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
15 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I think the observable here is that you cross-correlate time-series observations, usually at radio wavelengths, to determine the delay. The "events" are just the general variability of the background quasar/AGN. I think there is an example where a type Ia supernova was seen in >1 image at different times.
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PM2Ring re the typo, next time feel free to just make an edit. It's pretty common in the more civil SE sties for people to edit each other's posts I think. As for radio, I'm not so interested in time correlations as I am "...a well defined event that a lay person could understand, something blinking or disappearing or brightening substantially..."
$endgroup$
– uhoh
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RobJeffries ditto re "event". So a supernova would exactly fit the bill!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
15 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Optical observations may be easier for a lay person to relate to, but radio gives you a much more useful fingerprint / barcode. Bear in mind that the different paths mean that the signals experience different filtering & distortions, and the source isn't a point, so the images aren't of exactly the same thing, so it can be quite hard to even verify that they actually come from the same source.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
@RobJeffries' answer to the question Does gravitational lensing provide time evolution information? points out that there can be a substantial different in arrival times of light from a given source seen in different images from a gravitational lens.
The linked paper there shows "$Delta t$" values of the order of 30 days, but it is hard for me to understand what the actual observable is.
What I'm asking for here is (ideally) if there is a well defined event that a lay person could understand, something blinking or disappearing or brightening substantially that has already been seen in one image produced by a gravitational lens that has not yet been seen in one of the other images, and is expected to be seen in the (presumably near) future.
If something like this does not exist, a substitute could be a case where this has happened, and the second sighting of the same event was predicted, waited for, and observed on time.
I have no idea if this happens all the time, or has never happened yet.
observational-astronomy gravitational-lensing
asked 16 hours ago
uhohuhoh
6,98522173
$endgroup$
@RobJeffries' answer to the question Does gravitational lensing provide time evolution information? points out that there can be a substantial different in arrival times of light from a given source seen in different images from a gravitational lens.
The linked paper there shows "$Delta t$" values of the order of 30 days, but it is hard for me to understand what the actual observable is.
What I'm asking for here is (ideally) if there is a well defined event that a lay person could understand, something blinking or disappearing or brightening substantially that has already been seen in one image produced by a gravitational lens that has not yet been seen in one of the other images, and is expected to be seen in the (presumably near) future.
If something like this does not exist, a substitute could be a case where this has happened, and the second sighting of the same event was predicted, waited for, and observed on time.
I have no idea if this happens all the time, or has never happened yet.
observational-astronomy gravitational-lensing
observational-astronomy gravitational-lensing
asked 16 hours ago
uhohuhoh
6,98522173
asked 16 hours ago
uhohuhoh
6,98522173
edited 15 hours ago
uhoh
asked 16 hours ago
uhohuhoh
6,98522173
asked 16 hours ago
uhohuhoh
6,98522173
asked 16 hours ago
uhohuhoh
6,98522173
6,98522173
1
$begingroup$
FWIW, this kind of thing is a bit easier in radio astronomy. I've been looking for a good relevant article, but without success, but I've only been looking for stuff on HTML pages, not PDF links. I read about it years ago, with the astronomer comparing tapes of radio data, with a time delay of several months, but I can't remember where I read it.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
15 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I think the observable here is that you cross-correlate time-series observations, usually at radio wavelengths, to determine the delay. The "events" are just the general variability of the background quasar/AGN. I think there is an example where a type Ia supernova was seen in >1 image at different times.
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PM2Ring re the typo, next time feel free to just make an edit. It's pretty common in the more civil SE sties for people to edit each other's posts I think. As for radio, I'm not so interested in time correlations as I am "...a well defined event that a lay person could understand, something blinking or disappearing or brightening substantially..."
$endgroup$
– uhoh
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RobJeffries ditto re "event". So a supernova would exactly fit the bill!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
15 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Optical observations may be easier for a lay person to relate to, but radio gives you a much more useful fingerprint / barcode. Bear in mind that the different paths mean that the signals experience different filtering & distortions, and the source isn't a point, so the images aren't of exactly the same thing, so it can be quite hard to even verify that they actually come from the same source.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
1
$begingroup$
FWIW, this kind of thing is a bit easier in radio astronomy. I've been looking for a good relevant article, but without success, but I've only been looking for stuff on HTML pages, not PDF links. I read about it years ago, with the astronomer comparing tapes of radio data, with a time delay of several months, but I can't remember where I read it.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
15 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I think the observable here is that you cross-correlate time-series observations, usually at radio wavelengths, to determine the delay. The "events" are just the general variability of the background quasar/AGN. I think there is an example where a type Ia supernova was seen in >1 image at different times.
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PM2Ring re the typo, next time feel free to just make an edit. It's pretty common in the more civil SE sties for people to edit each other's posts I think. As for radio, I'm not so interested in time correlations as I am "...a well defined event that a lay person could understand, something blinking or disappearing or brightening substantially..."
$endgroup$
– uhoh
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RobJeffries ditto re "event". So a supernova would exactly fit the bill!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
15 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Optical observations may be easier for a lay person to relate to, but radio gives you a much more useful fingerprint / barcode. Bear in mind that the different paths mean that the signals experience different filtering & distortions, and the source isn't a point, so the images aren't of exactly the same thing, so it can be quite hard to even verify that they actually come from the same source.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
FWIW, this kind of thing is a bit easier in radio astronomy. I've been looking for a good relevant article, but without success, but I've only been looking for stuff on HTML pages, not PDF links. I read about it years ago, with the astronomer comparing tapes of radio data, with a time delay of several months, but I can't remember where I read it.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
FWIW, this kind of thing is a bit easier in radio astronomy. I've been looking for a good relevant article, but without success, but I've only been looking for stuff on HTML pages, not PDF links. I read about it years ago, with the astronomer comparing tapes of radio data, with a time delay of several months, but I can't remember where I read it.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
15 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
I think the observable here is that you cross-correlate time-series observations, usually at radio wavelengths, to determine the delay. The "events" are just the general variability of the background quasar/AGN. I think there is an example where a type Ia supernova was seen in >1 image at different times.
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think the observable here is that you cross-correlate time-series observations, usually at radio wavelengths, to determine the delay. The "events" are just the general variability of the background quasar/AGN. I think there is an example where a type Ia supernova was seen in >1 image at different times.
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PM2Ring re the typo, next time feel free to just make an edit. It's pretty common in the more civil SE sties for people to edit each other's posts I think. As for radio, I'm not so interested in time correlations as I am "...a well defined event that a lay person could understand, something blinking or disappearing or brightening substantially..."
$endgroup$
– uhoh
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PM2Ring re the typo, next time feel free to just make an edit. It's pretty common in the more civil SE sties for people to edit each other's posts I think. As for radio, I'm not so interested in time correlations as I am "...a well defined event that a lay person could understand, something blinking or disappearing or brightening substantially..."
$endgroup$
– uhoh
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RobJeffries ditto re "event". So a supernova would exactly fit the bill!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RobJeffries ditto re "event". So a supernova would exactly fit the bill!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
15 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Optical observations may be easier for a lay person to relate to, but radio gives you a much more useful fingerprint / barcode. Bear in mind that the different paths mean that the signals experience different filtering & distortions, and the source isn't a point, so the images aren't of exactly the same thing, so it can be quite hard to even verify that they actually come from the same source.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
Optical observations may be easier for a lay person to relate to, but radio gives you a much more useful fingerprint / barcode. Bear in mind that the different paths mean that the signals experience different filtering & distortions, and the source isn't a point, so the images aren't of exactly the same thing, so it can be quite hard to even verify that they actually come from the same source.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
What you do is cross-correlate the observational datasets for the multiple sources and look for the "lag" that maximises the cross-correlation function. Generally speaking, the "events" are not really individual flares or dips, but the summation of all the time variability that is seen.
The variability in question usually comes about from the central portions of the "central engine" of a quasar or active galactic nucleus. For a supermassive black hole at the centre of a quasar, the innermost stable circular orbit is at 3 times the Schwarzschild radius ($= 6GM_rm BH/c^2$). This basically defines the inner edge of any accretion disk and if we divide this by $c$ then we get a a timescale for the most rapid variations in luminosity output. So this is very nearly the same formula as presented in the linked question
$$tau sim 3times 10^-5 left(fracM_rm BHM_odotright) rm sec, ,$$
except that the supermassive black holes are much less massive than entire foreground lensing galaxies (usually). This the timescale of variation is much shorter than the potential delay time due to gravitational lensing. It is this difference in timescales that means there is plenty of "structure" within the light curves that can be locked onto by the cross-correlation.
There is a notable example however of a type Ia supernova being seen in a multiply lensed image (Goobar et al. (2017), but the predicted delay in the light curves was $<35$ hours and the light curves are not good enough to measure this. This technique is an active area of research and a major bit of science that is exprected to be achieved by the Large Synoptic Survey Telescope (Huber et al. 2019).
Finally, the thing you are really looking for has happened in terms of SN "Refsdal". This was a type II supernova seen to "go off" in a multiply imaged galaxy, seen through/around a galaxy cluster. A prediction was made, based on a model for the cluster gravitational potential, that another image ought to appear within a year or two. This further image was then detected by Kelly et al. (2016) in a paper entitled "Deja vu all over again".
From Kelly et al. (2016) ("Deja vu all over again"). See "SX" in the third panel:
Figure 1. Coadded WFC3-IR F125W and F160W exposures of the MACS J1149.5+2223 galaxy-cluster field taken with HST. The top panel shows images acquired in 2011 before the SN appeared in S1–S4 or SX. The middle panel displays images taken on 2015 April 20 when the four images forming the Einstein cross are close to maximum brightness, but no flux is evident at the position of SX. The bottom panel shows images taken on 2015 December 11 which reveal the new image SX of SN Refsdal. Images S1–S3 in the Einstein cross configuration remain visible in the 2015 December 11 coadded image (see Kelly et al. 2015a and Rodney et al. 2015b for analysis of the SN light curve).
Kelly, P. L., Brammer, G., Selsing, J., et al. 2015a, ApJ, submitted
(arXiv:1512.09093)
Rodney, S. A., Strolger, L.-G., Kelly, P. L., et al. 2015b, ApJ, in press
(arXiv:1512.05734)
edited 14 hours ago
uhoh
6,98522173
answered 15 hours ago
Rob JeffriesRob Jeffries
53.9k4111173
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I've added Figure 1 from "Deja vu all over again". I hope you don't mind, it's just so cool!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
14 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Named after the gravitational lensing pioneer Sjur Refsdal.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
);
);
, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "514"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fastronomy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f30243%2fare-astronomers-waiting-to-see-something-in-an-image-from-a-gravitational-lens-t%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
What you do is cross-correlate the observational datasets for the multiple sources and look for the "lag" that maximises the cross-correlation function. Generally speaking, the "events" are not really individual flares or dips, but the summation of all the time variability that is seen.
The variability in question usually comes about from the central portions of the "central engine" of a quasar or active galactic nucleus. For a supermassive black hole at the centre of a quasar, the innermost stable circular orbit is at 3 times the Schwarzschild radius ($= 6GM_rm BH/c^2$). This basically defines the inner edge of any accretion disk and if we divide this by $c$ then we get a a timescale for the most rapid variations in luminosity output. So this is very nearly the same formula as presented in the linked question
$$tau sim 3times 10^-5 left(fracM_rm BHM_odotright) rm sec, ,$$
except that the supermassive black holes are much less massive than entire foreground lensing galaxies (usually). This the timescale of variation is much shorter than the potential delay time due to gravitational lensing. It is this difference in timescales that means there is plenty of "structure" within the light curves that can be locked onto by the cross-correlation.
There is a notable example however of a type Ia supernova being seen in a multiply lensed image (Goobar et al. (2017), but the predicted delay in the light curves was $<35$ hours and the light curves are not good enough to measure this. This technique is an active area of research and a major bit of science that is exprected to be achieved by the Large Synoptic Survey Telescope (Huber et al. 2019).
Finally, the thing you are really looking for has happened in terms of SN "Refsdal". This was a type II supernova seen to "go off" in a multiply imaged galaxy, seen through/around a galaxy cluster. A prediction was made, based on a model for the cluster gravitational potential, that another image ought to appear within a year or two. This further image was then detected by Kelly et al. (2016) in a paper entitled "Deja vu all over again".
From Kelly et al. (2016) ("Deja vu all over again"). See "SX" in the third panel:
Figure 1. Coadded WFC3-IR F125W and F160W exposures of the MACS J1149.5+2223 galaxy-cluster field taken with HST. The top panel shows images acquired in 2011 before the SN appeared in S1–S4 or SX. The middle panel displays images taken on 2015 April 20 when the four images forming the Einstein cross are close to maximum brightness, but no flux is evident at the position of SX. The bottom panel shows images taken on 2015 December 11 which reveal the new image SX of SN Refsdal. Images S1–S3 in the Einstein cross configuration remain visible in the 2015 December 11 coadded image (see Kelly et al. 2015a and Rodney et al. 2015b for analysis of the SN light curve).
Kelly, P. L., Brammer, G., Selsing, J., et al. 2015a, ApJ, submitted
(arXiv:1512.09093)
Rodney, S. A., Strolger, L.-G., Kelly, P. L., et al. 2015b, ApJ, in press
(arXiv:1512.05734)
edited 14 hours ago
uhoh
6,98522173
answered 15 hours ago
Rob JeffriesRob Jeffries
53.9k4111173
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I've added Figure 1 from "Deja vu all over again". I hope you don't mind, it's just so cool!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
14 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Named after the gravitational lensing pioneer Sjur Refsdal.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What you do is cross-correlate the observational datasets for the multiple sources and look for the "lag" that maximises the cross-correlation function. Generally speaking, the "events" are not really individual flares or dips, but the summation of all the time variability that is seen.
The variability in question usually comes about from the central portions of the "central engine" of a quasar or active galactic nucleus. For a supermassive black hole at the centre of a quasar, the innermost stable circular orbit is at 3 times the Schwarzschild radius ($= 6GM_rm BH/c^2$). This basically defines the inner edge of any accretion disk and if we divide this by $c$ then we get a a timescale for the most rapid variations in luminosity output. So this is very nearly the same formula as presented in the linked question
$$tau sim 3times 10^-5 left(fracM_rm BHM_odotright) rm sec, ,$$
except that the supermassive black holes are much less massive than entire foreground lensing galaxies (usually). This the timescale of variation is much shorter than the potential delay time due to gravitational lensing. It is this difference in timescales that means there is plenty of "structure" within the light curves that can be locked onto by the cross-correlation.
There is a notable example however of a type Ia supernova being seen in a multiply lensed image (Goobar et al. (2017), but the predicted delay in the light curves was $<35$ hours and the light curves are not good enough to measure this. This technique is an active area of research and a major bit of science that is exprected to be achieved by the Large Synoptic Survey Telescope (Huber et al. 2019).
Finally, the thing you are really looking for has happened in terms of SN "Refsdal". This was a type II supernova seen to "go off" in a multiply imaged galaxy, seen through/around a galaxy cluster. A prediction was made, based on a model for the cluster gravitational potential, that another image ought to appear within a year or two. This further image was then detected by Kelly et al. (2016) in a paper entitled "Deja vu all over again".
From Kelly et al. (2016) ("Deja vu all over again"). See "SX" in the third panel:
Figure 1. Coadded WFC3-IR F125W and F160W exposures of the MACS J1149.5+2223 galaxy-cluster field taken with HST. The top panel shows images acquired in 2011 before the SN appeared in S1–S4 or SX. The middle panel displays images taken on 2015 April 20 when the four images forming the Einstein cross are close to maximum brightness, but no flux is evident at the position of SX. The bottom panel shows images taken on 2015 December 11 which reveal the new image SX of SN Refsdal. Images S1–S3 in the Einstein cross configuration remain visible in the 2015 December 11 coadded image (see Kelly et al. 2015a and Rodney et al. 2015b for analysis of the SN light curve).
Kelly, P. L., Brammer, G., Selsing, J., et al. 2015a, ApJ, submitted
(arXiv:1512.09093)
Rodney, S. A., Strolger, L.-G., Kelly, P. L., et al. 2015b, ApJ, in press
(arXiv:1512.05734)
edited 14 hours ago
uhoh
6,98522173
answered 15 hours ago
Rob JeffriesRob Jeffries
53.9k4111173
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I've added Figure 1 from "Deja vu all over again". I hope you don't mind, it's just so cool!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
14 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Named after the gravitational lensing pioneer Sjur Refsdal.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What you do is cross-correlate the observational datasets for the multiple sources and look for the "lag" that maximises the cross-correlation function. Generally speaking, the "events" are not really individual flares or dips, but the summation of all the time variability that is seen.
The variability in question usually comes about from the central portions of the "central engine" of a quasar or active galactic nucleus. For a supermassive black hole at the centre of a quasar, the innermost stable circular orbit is at 3 times the Schwarzschild radius ($= 6GM_rm BH/c^2$). This basically defines the inner edge of any accretion disk and if we divide this by $c$ then we get a a timescale for the most rapid variations in luminosity output. So this is very nearly the same formula as presented in the linked question
$$tau sim 3times 10^-5 left(fracM_rm BHM_odotright) rm sec, ,$$
except that the supermassive black holes are much less massive than entire foreground lensing galaxies (usually). This the timescale of variation is much shorter than the potential delay time due to gravitational lensing. It is this difference in timescales that means there is plenty of "structure" within the light curves that can be locked onto by the cross-correlation.
There is a notable example however of a type Ia supernova being seen in a multiply lensed image (Goobar et al. (2017), but the predicted delay in the light curves was $<35$ hours and the light curves are not good enough to measure this. This technique is an active area of research and a major bit of science that is exprected to be achieved by the Large Synoptic Survey Telescope (Huber et al. 2019).
Finally, the thing you are really looking for has happened in terms of SN "Refsdal". This was a type II supernova seen to "go off" in a multiply imaged galaxy, seen through/around a galaxy cluster. A prediction was made, based on a model for the cluster gravitational potential, that another image ought to appear within a year or two. This further image was then detected by Kelly et al. (2016) in a paper entitled "Deja vu all over again".
From Kelly et al. (2016) ("Deja vu all over again"). See "SX" in the third panel:
Figure 1. Coadded WFC3-IR F125W and F160W exposures of the MACS J1149.5+2223 galaxy-cluster field taken with HST. The top panel shows images acquired in 2011 before the SN appeared in S1–S4 or SX. The middle panel displays images taken on 2015 April 20 when the four images forming the Einstein cross are close to maximum brightness, but no flux is evident at the position of SX. The bottom panel shows images taken on 2015 December 11 which reveal the new image SX of SN Refsdal. Images S1–S3 in the Einstein cross configuration remain visible in the 2015 December 11 coadded image (see Kelly et al. 2015a and Rodney et al. 2015b for analysis of the SN light curve).
Kelly, P. L., Brammer, G., Selsing, J., et al. 2015a, ApJ, submitted
(arXiv:1512.09093)
Rodney, S. A., Strolger, L.-G., Kelly, P. L., et al. 2015b, ApJ, in press
(arXiv:1512.05734)
edited 14 hours ago
uhoh
6,98522173
answered 15 hours ago
Rob JeffriesRob Jeffries
53.9k4111173
$endgroup$
What you do is cross-correlate the observational datasets for the multiple sources and look for the "lag" that maximises the cross-correlation function. Generally speaking, the "events" are not really individual flares or dips, but the summation of all the time variability that is seen.
The variability in question usually comes about from the central portions of the "central engine" of a quasar or active galactic nucleus. For a supermassive black hole at the centre of a quasar, the innermost stable circular orbit is at 3 times the Schwarzschild radius ($= 6GM_rm BH/c^2$). This basically defines the inner edge of any accretion disk and if we divide this by $c$ then we get a a timescale for the most rapid variations in luminosity output. So this is very nearly the same formula as presented in the linked question
$$tau sim 3times 10^-5 left(fracM_rm BHM_odotright) rm sec, ,$$
except that the supermassive black holes are much less massive than entire foreground lensing galaxies (usually). This the timescale of variation is much shorter than the potential delay time due to gravitational lensing. It is this difference in timescales that means there is plenty of "structure" within the light curves that can be locked onto by the cross-correlation.
There is a notable example however of a type Ia supernova being seen in a multiply lensed image (Goobar et al. (2017), but the predicted delay in the light curves was $<35$ hours and the light curves are not good enough to measure this. This technique is an active area of research and a major bit of science that is exprected to be achieved by the Large Synoptic Survey Telescope (Huber et al. 2019).
Finally, the thing you are really looking for has happened in terms of SN "Refsdal". This was a type II supernova seen to "go off" in a multiply imaged galaxy, seen through/around a galaxy cluster. A prediction was made, based on a model for the cluster gravitational potential, that another image ought to appear within a year or two. This further image was then detected by Kelly et al. (2016) in a paper entitled "Deja vu all over again".
From Kelly et al. (2016) ("Deja vu all over again"). See "SX" in the third panel:
Figure 1. Coadded WFC3-IR F125W and F160W exposures of the MACS J1149.5+2223 galaxy-cluster field taken with HST. The top panel shows images acquired in 2011 before the SN appeared in S1–S4 or SX. The middle panel displays images taken on 2015 April 20 when the four images forming the Einstein cross are close to maximum brightness, but no flux is evident at the position of SX. The bottom panel shows images taken on 2015 December 11 which reveal the new image SX of SN Refsdal. Images S1–S3 in the Einstein cross configuration remain visible in the 2015 December 11 coadded image (see Kelly et al. 2015a and Rodney et al. 2015b for analysis of the SN light curve).
Kelly, P. L., Brammer, G., Selsing, J., et al. 2015a, ApJ, submitted
(arXiv:1512.09093)
Rodney, S. A., Strolger, L.-G., Kelly, P. L., et al. 2015b, ApJ, in press
(arXiv:1512.05734)
edited 14 hours ago
uhoh
6,98522173
answered 15 hours ago
Rob JeffriesRob Jeffries
53.9k4111173
edited 14 hours ago
uhoh
6,98522173
edited 14 hours ago
uhoh
6,98522173
edited 14 hours ago
uhoh
6,98522173
6,98522173
answered 15 hours ago
Rob JeffriesRob Jeffries
53.9k4111173
answered 15 hours ago
Rob JeffriesRob Jeffries
53.9k4111173
answered 15 hours ago
Rob JeffriesRob Jeffries
53.9k4111173
53.9k4111173
$begingroup$
I've added Figure 1 from "Deja vu all over again". I hope you don't mind, it's just so cool!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
14 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Named after the gravitational lensing pioneer Sjur Refsdal.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I've added Figure 1 from "Deja vu all over again". I hope you don't mind, it's just so cool!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
14 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Named after the gravitational lensing pioneer Sjur Refsdal.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
I've added Figure 1 from "Deja vu all over again". I hope you don't mind, it's just so cool!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
I've added Figure 1 from "Deja vu all over again". I hope you don't mind, it's just so cool!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
14 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Named after the gravitational lensing pioneer Sjur Refsdal.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
Named after the gravitational lensing pioneer Sjur Refsdal.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Astronomy Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fastronomy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f30243%2fare-astronomers-waiting-to-see-something-in-an-image-from-a-gravitational-lens-t%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
1
$begingroup$
FWIW, this kind of thing is a bit easier in radio astronomy. I've been looking for a good relevant article, but without success, but I've only been looking for stuff on HTML pages, not PDF links. I read about it years ago, with the astronomer comparing tapes of radio data, with a time delay of several months, but I can't remember where I read it.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
15 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I think the observable here is that you cross-correlate time-series observations, usually at radio wavelengths, to determine the delay. The "events" are just the general variability of the background quasar/AGN. I think there is an example where a type Ia supernova was seen in >1 image at different times.
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PM2Ring re the typo, next time feel free to just make an edit. It's pretty common in the more civil SE sties for people to edit each other's posts I think. As for radio, I'm not so interested in time correlations as I am "...a well defined event that a lay person could understand, something blinking or disappearing or brightening substantially..."
$endgroup$
– uhoh
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RobJeffries ditto re "event". So a supernova would exactly fit the bill!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
15 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Optical observations may be easier for a lay person to relate to, but radio gives you a much more useful fingerprint / barcode. Bear in mind that the different paths mean that the signals experience different filtering & distortions, and the source isn't a point, so the images aren't of exactly the same thing, so it can be quite hard to even verify that they actually come from the same source.
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
14 hours ago