Gastric acid as a weapon Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern) The network's official Twitter account is up and running again. What content…Biological adaptations necessary for weaponized (or otherwise made useful) refluxEvolution of a creature that uses light as a weaponCan hydrochloric acid and digestive enzymes cause a fire?Taking all the blood of a dozen humans and putting it into acid – could I create a wolf?Life giving hydrochloric acid (HCl)?What is the deadliest acid a hypothetical biological creature could utilize as a weapon?Acid spraying dragon (of death)!How could an acid-cow make a barrier against acidic milk by synthesizing PTFE, and what would it line?Octopus ink contains micro parasites that act as acidCould a species evolve a defensive ability to excrete a super acid?biologic liquid weapon

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Gastric acid as a weapon

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Gastric acid as a weapon



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)
The network's official Twitter account is up and running again. What content…Biological adaptations necessary for weaponized (or otherwise made useful) refluxEvolution of a creature that uses light as a weaponCan hydrochloric acid and digestive enzymes cause a fire?Taking all the blood of a dozen humans and putting it into acid – could I create a wolf?Life giving hydrochloric acid (HCl)?What is the deadliest acid a hypothetical biological creature could utilize as a weapon?Acid spraying dragon (of death)!How could an acid-cow make a barrier against acidic milk by synthesizing PTFE, and what would it line?Octopus ink contains micro parasites that act as acidCould a species evolve a defensive ability to excrete a super acid?biologic liquid weapon










4












$begingroup$


The dragons in my fantasy world spit fluid from their mouths when threatened, which upon contact causes a burning sensation. I could have this liquid be standard venom, like modified saliva, but I wanted to shake things up a bit.



Could powerful stomach acid be spat as a means of defense and/or attack? My main concern is that it would be either too inefficient or too evolutionarily unlikely that another method of defense would be much more plausible to evolve.



I'm not aware of any duplicates to this question, apologies if I've missed one.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    I see you're sneaking in three extra questions there ... best practice is to ask one focused question in order to get one good answer. You can always ask follow up questions. But you knew that already! Please edit accordingly.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @elemtilas Fair enough. Question edited.
    $endgroup$
    – SealBoi
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Great! Question answered!
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Related (but not a dupe): worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/q/115804/21222
    $endgroup$
    – Renan
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    As another alternative, consider the Bombardier Beetle: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle
    $endgroup$
    – Arkenstein XII
    1 hour ago















4












$begingroup$


The dragons in my fantasy world spit fluid from their mouths when threatened, which upon contact causes a burning sensation. I could have this liquid be standard venom, like modified saliva, but I wanted to shake things up a bit.



Could powerful stomach acid be spat as a means of defense and/or attack? My main concern is that it would be either too inefficient or too evolutionarily unlikely that another method of defense would be much more plausible to evolve.



I'm not aware of any duplicates to this question, apologies if I've missed one.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    I see you're sneaking in three extra questions there ... best practice is to ask one focused question in order to get one good answer. You can always ask follow up questions. But you knew that already! Please edit accordingly.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @elemtilas Fair enough. Question edited.
    $endgroup$
    – SealBoi
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Great! Question answered!
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Related (but not a dupe): worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/q/115804/21222
    $endgroup$
    – Renan
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    As another alternative, consider the Bombardier Beetle: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle
    $endgroup$
    – Arkenstein XII
    1 hour ago













4












4








4





$begingroup$


The dragons in my fantasy world spit fluid from their mouths when threatened, which upon contact causes a burning sensation. I could have this liquid be standard venom, like modified saliva, but I wanted to shake things up a bit.



Could powerful stomach acid be spat as a means of defense and/or attack? My main concern is that it would be either too inefficient or too evolutionarily unlikely that another method of defense would be much more plausible to evolve.



I'm not aware of any duplicates to this question, apologies if I've missed one.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




The dragons in my fantasy world spit fluid from their mouths when threatened, which upon contact causes a burning sensation. I could have this liquid be standard venom, like modified saliva, but I wanted to shake things up a bit.



Could powerful stomach acid be spat as a means of defense and/or attack? My main concern is that it would be either too inefficient or too evolutionarily unlikely that another method of defense would be much more plausible to evolve.



I'm not aware of any duplicates to this question, apologies if I've missed one.







science-based creature-design evolution dragons natural-defenses






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 5 hours ago







SealBoi

















asked 5 hours ago









SealBoiSealBoi

6,98112570




6,98112570











  • $begingroup$
    I see you're sneaking in three extra questions there ... best practice is to ask one focused question in order to get one good answer. You can always ask follow up questions. But you knew that already! Please edit accordingly.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @elemtilas Fair enough. Question edited.
    $endgroup$
    – SealBoi
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Great! Question answered!
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Related (but not a dupe): worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/q/115804/21222
    $endgroup$
    – Renan
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    As another alternative, consider the Bombardier Beetle: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle
    $endgroup$
    – Arkenstein XII
    1 hour ago
















  • $begingroup$
    I see you're sneaking in three extra questions there ... best practice is to ask one focused question in order to get one good answer. You can always ask follow up questions. But you knew that already! Please edit accordingly.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @elemtilas Fair enough. Question edited.
    $endgroup$
    – SealBoi
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Great! Question answered!
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Related (but not a dupe): worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/q/115804/21222
    $endgroup$
    – Renan
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    As another alternative, consider the Bombardier Beetle: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle
    $endgroup$
    – Arkenstein XII
    1 hour ago















$begingroup$
I see you're sneaking in three extra questions there ... best practice is to ask one focused question in order to get one good answer. You can always ask follow up questions. But you knew that already! Please edit accordingly.
$endgroup$
– elemtilas
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
I see you're sneaking in three extra questions there ... best practice is to ask one focused question in order to get one good answer. You can always ask follow up questions. But you knew that already! Please edit accordingly.
$endgroup$
– elemtilas
5 hours ago












$begingroup$
@elemtilas Fair enough. Question edited.
$endgroup$
– SealBoi
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
@elemtilas Fair enough. Question edited.
$endgroup$
– SealBoi
5 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Great! Question answered!
$endgroup$
– elemtilas
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
Great! Question answered!
$endgroup$
– elemtilas
5 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Related (but not a dupe): worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/q/115804/21222
$endgroup$
– Renan
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
Related (but not a dupe): worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/q/115804/21222
$endgroup$
– Renan
4 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
As another alternative, consider the Bombardier Beetle: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle
$endgroup$
– Arkenstein XII
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
As another alternative, consider the Bombardier Beetle: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle
$endgroup$
– Arkenstein XII
1 hour ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















6












$begingroup$

YES



Gastric acid (HCl) can be used as a means of defense or attack. Acid weapons are known in nature. Ants spray formic acid, for example. Some birds, vutlures for example, vomit as means of defense. A number of creatures evert their stomachs in order to clear out yucky things they've eaten.



In the literature, we find this example of gastric acid magic.



enter image description here



Yum. So yes, your dragons could certainly do this as well. If they're large beasts, the effects will probably be quite astonishing.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Additionally, depending on the diet of the dragon, the acid may have to be more corrosive in order to digest exotic items. This makes sense in an evolutionary perspective.
    $endgroup$
    – Mathaddict
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mathaddict Indeed! If you look into vultures as a real world exemplar upon which to model the dragon's behaviour, their gastric acid is terribly acidic compared with humans'.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    4 hours ago







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Love those "Would this crazy outlandish thing be possible somehow?" "Yes, it already exists in nature."
    $endgroup$
    – Eth
    4 hours ago


















5












$begingroup$


Could powerful stomach acid be spat as a means of defense and/or attack?




YES but...



The stomach of any organism using acid as digestive liquid is protected against the action of said acid by a thick layer of mucus. The esophagus doesn't have the luxury of this layer, and is thus much more vulnerable to the action of the acid. In fact humans can get esophagus perforation in such cases.



So, if you want your dragon to throw up acid, you need to coat its esophagus with a thick layer of mucus.



However... attacking after lunch would mean emptying one's stomach, which would result in a energetic loss. It is reasonable as a mean of "better hungry and alive than full and dead" for a lesser animal, but for a might dragon might be a bit against the rule of cool.



Better would be to have your dragon develop some pockets where acid can be stored and used at necessity, without the need to throw away a well deserved meal.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Presumably, this attack would be used as a means of acquiring lunch, so that would not be a problem. (It would even pre-digest your food a bit before swallowing it...)
    $endgroup$
    – Darrel Hoffman
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Also, the acid could be produced/stored in glands or bladders located just above the stomach along the esophagus; they could have an extra sphincter in their esophagus -- one above the acid bladders in addition to the one below. Normally, when digesting, the upper one closes and the lower one opens, and the bladders secrete a small portion of their contents to help digest food. When the dragon needs to spit though, the lower sphincter closes while the upper one opens, and the bladders disgorge a much greater volume of acid, creating a nasty acid spray.
    $endgroup$
    – Doktor J
    28 mins ago












Your Answer








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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









6












$begingroup$

YES



Gastric acid (HCl) can be used as a means of defense or attack. Acid weapons are known in nature. Ants spray formic acid, for example. Some birds, vutlures for example, vomit as means of defense. A number of creatures evert their stomachs in order to clear out yucky things they've eaten.



In the literature, we find this example of gastric acid magic.



enter image description here



Yum. So yes, your dragons could certainly do this as well. If they're large beasts, the effects will probably be quite astonishing.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Additionally, depending on the diet of the dragon, the acid may have to be more corrosive in order to digest exotic items. This makes sense in an evolutionary perspective.
    $endgroup$
    – Mathaddict
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mathaddict Indeed! If you look into vultures as a real world exemplar upon which to model the dragon's behaviour, their gastric acid is terribly acidic compared with humans'.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    4 hours ago







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Love those "Would this crazy outlandish thing be possible somehow?" "Yes, it already exists in nature."
    $endgroup$
    – Eth
    4 hours ago















6












$begingroup$

YES



Gastric acid (HCl) can be used as a means of defense or attack. Acid weapons are known in nature. Ants spray formic acid, for example. Some birds, vutlures for example, vomit as means of defense. A number of creatures evert their stomachs in order to clear out yucky things they've eaten.



In the literature, we find this example of gastric acid magic.



enter image description here



Yum. So yes, your dragons could certainly do this as well. If they're large beasts, the effects will probably be quite astonishing.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Additionally, depending on the diet of the dragon, the acid may have to be more corrosive in order to digest exotic items. This makes sense in an evolutionary perspective.
    $endgroup$
    – Mathaddict
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mathaddict Indeed! If you look into vultures as a real world exemplar upon which to model the dragon's behaviour, their gastric acid is terribly acidic compared with humans'.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    4 hours ago







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Love those "Would this crazy outlandish thing be possible somehow?" "Yes, it already exists in nature."
    $endgroup$
    – Eth
    4 hours ago













6












6








6





$begingroup$

YES



Gastric acid (HCl) can be used as a means of defense or attack. Acid weapons are known in nature. Ants spray formic acid, for example. Some birds, vutlures for example, vomit as means of defense. A number of creatures evert their stomachs in order to clear out yucky things they've eaten.



In the literature, we find this example of gastric acid magic.



enter image description here



Yum. So yes, your dragons could certainly do this as well. If they're large beasts, the effects will probably be quite astonishing.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



YES



Gastric acid (HCl) can be used as a means of defense or attack. Acid weapons are known in nature. Ants spray formic acid, for example. Some birds, vutlures for example, vomit as means of defense. A number of creatures evert their stomachs in order to clear out yucky things they've eaten.



In the literature, we find this example of gastric acid magic.



enter image description here



Yum. So yes, your dragons could certainly do this as well. If they're large beasts, the effects will probably be quite astonishing.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 5 hours ago









elemtilaselemtilas

15k23364




15k23364







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Additionally, depending on the diet of the dragon, the acid may have to be more corrosive in order to digest exotic items. This makes sense in an evolutionary perspective.
    $endgroup$
    – Mathaddict
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mathaddict Indeed! If you look into vultures as a real world exemplar upon which to model the dragon's behaviour, their gastric acid is terribly acidic compared with humans'.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    4 hours ago







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Love those "Would this crazy outlandish thing be possible somehow?" "Yes, it already exists in nature."
    $endgroup$
    – Eth
    4 hours ago












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Additionally, depending on the diet of the dragon, the acid may have to be more corrosive in order to digest exotic items. This makes sense in an evolutionary perspective.
    $endgroup$
    – Mathaddict
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mathaddict Indeed! If you look into vultures as a real world exemplar upon which to model the dragon's behaviour, their gastric acid is terribly acidic compared with humans'.
    $endgroup$
    – elemtilas
    4 hours ago







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Love those "Would this crazy outlandish thing be possible somehow?" "Yes, it already exists in nature."
    $endgroup$
    – Eth
    4 hours ago







1




1




$begingroup$
Additionally, depending on the diet of the dragon, the acid may have to be more corrosive in order to digest exotic items. This makes sense in an evolutionary perspective.
$endgroup$
– Mathaddict
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
Additionally, depending on the diet of the dragon, the acid may have to be more corrosive in order to digest exotic items. This makes sense in an evolutionary perspective.
$endgroup$
– Mathaddict
4 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
@Mathaddict Indeed! If you look into vultures as a real world exemplar upon which to model the dragon's behaviour, their gastric acid is terribly acidic compared with humans'.
$endgroup$
– elemtilas
4 hours ago





$begingroup$
@Mathaddict Indeed! If you look into vultures as a real world exemplar upon which to model the dragon's behaviour, their gastric acid is terribly acidic compared with humans'.
$endgroup$
– elemtilas
4 hours ago





4




4




$begingroup$
Love those "Would this crazy outlandish thing be possible somehow?" "Yes, it already exists in nature."
$endgroup$
– Eth
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
Love those "Would this crazy outlandish thing be possible somehow?" "Yes, it already exists in nature."
$endgroup$
– Eth
4 hours ago











5












$begingroup$


Could powerful stomach acid be spat as a means of defense and/or attack?




YES but...



The stomach of any organism using acid as digestive liquid is protected against the action of said acid by a thick layer of mucus. The esophagus doesn't have the luxury of this layer, and is thus much more vulnerable to the action of the acid. In fact humans can get esophagus perforation in such cases.



So, if you want your dragon to throw up acid, you need to coat its esophagus with a thick layer of mucus.



However... attacking after lunch would mean emptying one's stomach, which would result in a energetic loss. It is reasonable as a mean of "better hungry and alive than full and dead" for a lesser animal, but for a might dragon might be a bit against the rule of cool.



Better would be to have your dragon develop some pockets where acid can be stored and used at necessity, without the need to throw away a well deserved meal.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Presumably, this attack would be used as a means of acquiring lunch, so that would not be a problem. (It would even pre-digest your food a bit before swallowing it...)
    $endgroup$
    – Darrel Hoffman
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Also, the acid could be produced/stored in glands or bladders located just above the stomach along the esophagus; they could have an extra sphincter in their esophagus -- one above the acid bladders in addition to the one below. Normally, when digesting, the upper one closes and the lower one opens, and the bladders secrete a small portion of their contents to help digest food. When the dragon needs to spit though, the lower sphincter closes while the upper one opens, and the bladders disgorge a much greater volume of acid, creating a nasty acid spray.
    $endgroup$
    – Doktor J
    28 mins ago
















5












$begingroup$


Could powerful stomach acid be spat as a means of defense and/or attack?




YES but...



The stomach of any organism using acid as digestive liquid is protected against the action of said acid by a thick layer of mucus. The esophagus doesn't have the luxury of this layer, and is thus much more vulnerable to the action of the acid. In fact humans can get esophagus perforation in such cases.



So, if you want your dragon to throw up acid, you need to coat its esophagus with a thick layer of mucus.



However... attacking after lunch would mean emptying one's stomach, which would result in a energetic loss. It is reasonable as a mean of "better hungry and alive than full and dead" for a lesser animal, but for a might dragon might be a bit against the rule of cool.



Better would be to have your dragon develop some pockets where acid can be stored and used at necessity, without the need to throw away a well deserved meal.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Presumably, this attack would be used as a means of acquiring lunch, so that would not be a problem. (It would even pre-digest your food a bit before swallowing it...)
    $endgroup$
    – Darrel Hoffman
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Also, the acid could be produced/stored in glands or bladders located just above the stomach along the esophagus; they could have an extra sphincter in their esophagus -- one above the acid bladders in addition to the one below. Normally, when digesting, the upper one closes and the lower one opens, and the bladders secrete a small portion of their contents to help digest food. When the dragon needs to spit though, the lower sphincter closes while the upper one opens, and the bladders disgorge a much greater volume of acid, creating a nasty acid spray.
    $endgroup$
    – Doktor J
    28 mins ago














5












5








5





$begingroup$


Could powerful stomach acid be spat as a means of defense and/or attack?




YES but...



The stomach of any organism using acid as digestive liquid is protected against the action of said acid by a thick layer of mucus. The esophagus doesn't have the luxury of this layer, and is thus much more vulnerable to the action of the acid. In fact humans can get esophagus perforation in such cases.



So, if you want your dragon to throw up acid, you need to coat its esophagus with a thick layer of mucus.



However... attacking after lunch would mean emptying one's stomach, which would result in a energetic loss. It is reasonable as a mean of "better hungry and alive than full and dead" for a lesser animal, but for a might dragon might be a bit against the rule of cool.



Better would be to have your dragon develop some pockets where acid can be stored and used at necessity, without the need to throw away a well deserved meal.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$




Could powerful stomach acid be spat as a means of defense and/or attack?




YES but...



The stomach of any organism using acid as digestive liquid is protected against the action of said acid by a thick layer of mucus. The esophagus doesn't have the luxury of this layer, and is thus much more vulnerable to the action of the acid. In fact humans can get esophagus perforation in such cases.



So, if you want your dragon to throw up acid, you need to coat its esophagus with a thick layer of mucus.



However... attacking after lunch would mean emptying one's stomach, which would result in a energetic loss. It is reasonable as a mean of "better hungry and alive than full and dead" for a lesser animal, but for a might dragon might be a bit against the rule of cool.



Better would be to have your dragon develop some pockets where acid can be stored and used at necessity, without the need to throw away a well deserved meal.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 4 hours ago









L.DutchL.Dutch

91.7k29212440




91.7k29212440











  • $begingroup$
    Presumably, this attack would be used as a means of acquiring lunch, so that would not be a problem. (It would even pre-digest your food a bit before swallowing it...)
    $endgroup$
    – Darrel Hoffman
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Also, the acid could be produced/stored in glands or bladders located just above the stomach along the esophagus; they could have an extra sphincter in their esophagus -- one above the acid bladders in addition to the one below. Normally, when digesting, the upper one closes and the lower one opens, and the bladders secrete a small portion of their contents to help digest food. When the dragon needs to spit though, the lower sphincter closes while the upper one opens, and the bladders disgorge a much greater volume of acid, creating a nasty acid spray.
    $endgroup$
    – Doktor J
    28 mins ago

















  • $begingroup$
    Presumably, this attack would be used as a means of acquiring lunch, so that would not be a problem. (It would even pre-digest your food a bit before swallowing it...)
    $endgroup$
    – Darrel Hoffman
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Also, the acid could be produced/stored in glands or bladders located just above the stomach along the esophagus; they could have an extra sphincter in their esophagus -- one above the acid bladders in addition to the one below. Normally, when digesting, the upper one closes and the lower one opens, and the bladders secrete a small portion of their contents to help digest food. When the dragon needs to spit though, the lower sphincter closes while the upper one opens, and the bladders disgorge a much greater volume of acid, creating a nasty acid spray.
    $endgroup$
    – Doktor J
    28 mins ago
















$begingroup$
Presumably, this attack would be used as a means of acquiring lunch, so that would not be a problem. (It would even pre-digest your food a bit before swallowing it...)
$endgroup$
– Darrel Hoffman
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
Presumably, this attack would be used as a means of acquiring lunch, so that would not be a problem. (It would even pre-digest your food a bit before swallowing it...)
$endgroup$
– Darrel Hoffman
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
Also, the acid could be produced/stored in glands or bladders located just above the stomach along the esophagus; they could have an extra sphincter in their esophagus -- one above the acid bladders in addition to the one below. Normally, when digesting, the upper one closes and the lower one opens, and the bladders secrete a small portion of their contents to help digest food. When the dragon needs to spit though, the lower sphincter closes while the upper one opens, and the bladders disgorge a much greater volume of acid, creating a nasty acid spray.
$endgroup$
– Doktor J
28 mins ago





$begingroup$
Also, the acid could be produced/stored in glands or bladders located just above the stomach along the esophagus; they could have an extra sphincter in their esophagus -- one above the acid bladders in addition to the one below. Normally, when digesting, the upper one closes and the lower one opens, and the bladders secrete a small portion of their contents to help digest food. When the dragon needs to spit though, the lower sphincter closes while the upper one opens, and the bladders disgorge a much greater volume of acid, creating a nasty acid spray.
$endgroup$
– Doktor J
28 mins ago


















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