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Translation norms: a dash instead of “esse”



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InWhat is the phrase “Above all the hunt” translated into Latin?Translation of a Jodocus Hondius map inscriptionI do what I want VS Quid me vis facere VS Facio quod volo“Mind the gap!”How to translate these sentences to Latin?Latin to deduct or withhold taxesElevatis oculis?What would “high school” be in Latin?“Blood for the Blood God” vs “Gloria In Excelsis Deo”Translating “accept the journey” into Latin










4















What option is preferable in the translation of a phrase, say, "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results" in your opinion?



  • Option 1: cogitationes malae – praemia mala

  • Option 2:
    cogitationes malae praemia mala sunt

  • Option 3 (possibly): yours

Thanks in advance for helping me out with translation strategies for a new language to me.










share|improve this question









New contributor




Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
























    4















    What option is preferable in the translation of a phrase, say, "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results" in your opinion?



    • Option 1: cogitationes malae – praemia mala

    • Option 2:
      cogitationes malae praemia mala sunt

    • Option 3 (possibly): yours

    Thanks in advance for helping me out with translation strategies for a new language to me.










    share|improve this question









    New contributor




    Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






















      4












      4








      4








      What option is preferable in the translation of a phrase, say, "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results" in your opinion?



      • Option 1: cogitationes malae – praemia mala

      • Option 2:
        cogitationes malae praemia mala sunt

      • Option 3 (possibly): yours

      Thanks in advance for helping me out with translation strategies for a new language to me.










      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.












      What option is preferable in the translation of a phrase, say, "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results" in your opinion?



      • Option 1: cogitationes malae – praemia mala

      • Option 2:
        cogitationes malae praemia mala sunt

      • Option 3 (possibly): yours

      Thanks in advance for helping me out with translation strategies for a new language to me.







      english-to-latin-translation sentence-translation






      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 12 hours ago









      Joonas Ilmavirta

      49.2k1271287




      49.2k1271287






      New contributor




      Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      asked 16 hours ago









      Ecr iosEcr ios

      213




      213




      New contributor




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      New contributor





      Ecr ios is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      Check out our Code of Conduct.




















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          4














          Replacing esse with a dash does not feel like idiomatic Latin to me.
          One important reason is that the dash did not exist in the era of classical Latin, at least not like today.
          Using a dash instead of a "to be" is common in Russian (and maybe other Slavic languages), and I have seen a number of people who were educated in Russian using dash similarly in English and other languages.
          Therefore option 1 looks like Russian influence to me, and I don't think it sits as well with Latin.
          A much more idiomatic choice in Latin is to leave out the esse completely.



          Option 2 feels more idiomatic.
          However, it doesn't mean "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results".
          It means "bad thoughts are bad results".
          In fact, option 1 might be preferable as the dash could be read as "therefore" instead of a form of esse.



          I prefer option 3; something else would be better.
          I agree with Hugh that "ex X[abl] Y[nom]" is a good way to translate "from X Y".
          No verb is needed.
          If you want to add a verb, it should not be esse.
          The English original has "give rise" or "lead to", not "are".
          A better fit would be fieri:




          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala fiunt

          From bad thoughts arise bad results




          One can also rewrite the whole sentence to get more options:




          Mala cogitans mala facit

          One who things bad does bad things




          Here you can replace mala ("bad things") with male ("badly") in one or both instances.




          Per cogitationes malas male accidit

          Through bad thoughts bad things happen




          The difference between these two options is whether you want to give more agency to someone doing bad or the bad events themselves.






          share|improve this answer

























          • You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

            – Ecr ios
            11 hours ago











          • @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

            – Joonas Ilmavirta
            10 hours ago






          • 1





            Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

            – Ecr ios
            10 hours ago



















          2














          Would you be prepared to rephrase it as "Out of bad thoughts, bad results" ? E or Ex + Ablative means 'out of,' or 'resulting from.' Is that close enough to your original idea?




          cogitationes malae – praemia mala becomes
          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala




          • no need for 'est'

          Simpler still, or perhaps only shorter, use a Past Participle to give precedence of time to the cogitationes. Lierally "Bad things having been thought, (there are) evil rewards;" or "With bad thinking, outcomes are evil."




          Malis cogitatis, praemia mala.




          This uses the Ablative Absolute construction.






          share|improve this answer























          • Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

            – Ecr ios
            11 hours ago











          Your Answer








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          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes








          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          4














          Replacing esse with a dash does not feel like idiomatic Latin to me.
          One important reason is that the dash did not exist in the era of classical Latin, at least not like today.
          Using a dash instead of a "to be" is common in Russian (and maybe other Slavic languages), and I have seen a number of people who were educated in Russian using dash similarly in English and other languages.
          Therefore option 1 looks like Russian influence to me, and I don't think it sits as well with Latin.
          A much more idiomatic choice in Latin is to leave out the esse completely.



          Option 2 feels more idiomatic.
          However, it doesn't mean "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results".
          It means "bad thoughts are bad results".
          In fact, option 1 might be preferable as the dash could be read as "therefore" instead of a form of esse.



          I prefer option 3; something else would be better.
          I agree with Hugh that "ex X[abl] Y[nom]" is a good way to translate "from X Y".
          No verb is needed.
          If you want to add a verb, it should not be esse.
          The English original has "give rise" or "lead to", not "are".
          A better fit would be fieri:




          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala fiunt

          From bad thoughts arise bad results




          One can also rewrite the whole sentence to get more options:




          Mala cogitans mala facit

          One who things bad does bad things




          Here you can replace mala ("bad things") with male ("badly") in one or both instances.




          Per cogitationes malas male accidit

          Through bad thoughts bad things happen




          The difference between these two options is whether you want to give more agency to someone doing bad or the bad events themselves.






          share|improve this answer

























          • You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

            – Ecr ios
            11 hours ago











          • @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

            – Joonas Ilmavirta
            10 hours ago






          • 1





            Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

            – Ecr ios
            10 hours ago
















          4














          Replacing esse with a dash does not feel like idiomatic Latin to me.
          One important reason is that the dash did not exist in the era of classical Latin, at least not like today.
          Using a dash instead of a "to be" is common in Russian (and maybe other Slavic languages), and I have seen a number of people who were educated in Russian using dash similarly in English and other languages.
          Therefore option 1 looks like Russian influence to me, and I don't think it sits as well with Latin.
          A much more idiomatic choice in Latin is to leave out the esse completely.



          Option 2 feels more idiomatic.
          However, it doesn't mean "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results".
          It means "bad thoughts are bad results".
          In fact, option 1 might be preferable as the dash could be read as "therefore" instead of a form of esse.



          I prefer option 3; something else would be better.
          I agree with Hugh that "ex X[abl] Y[nom]" is a good way to translate "from X Y".
          No verb is needed.
          If you want to add a verb, it should not be esse.
          The English original has "give rise" or "lead to", not "are".
          A better fit would be fieri:




          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala fiunt

          From bad thoughts arise bad results




          One can also rewrite the whole sentence to get more options:




          Mala cogitans mala facit

          One who things bad does bad things




          Here you can replace mala ("bad things") with male ("badly") in one or both instances.




          Per cogitationes malas male accidit

          Through bad thoughts bad things happen




          The difference between these two options is whether you want to give more agency to someone doing bad or the bad events themselves.






          share|improve this answer

























          • You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

            – Ecr ios
            11 hours ago











          • @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

            – Joonas Ilmavirta
            10 hours ago






          • 1





            Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

            – Ecr ios
            10 hours ago














          4












          4








          4







          Replacing esse with a dash does not feel like idiomatic Latin to me.
          One important reason is that the dash did not exist in the era of classical Latin, at least not like today.
          Using a dash instead of a "to be" is common in Russian (and maybe other Slavic languages), and I have seen a number of people who were educated in Russian using dash similarly in English and other languages.
          Therefore option 1 looks like Russian influence to me, and I don't think it sits as well with Latin.
          A much more idiomatic choice in Latin is to leave out the esse completely.



          Option 2 feels more idiomatic.
          However, it doesn't mean "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results".
          It means "bad thoughts are bad results".
          In fact, option 1 might be preferable as the dash could be read as "therefore" instead of a form of esse.



          I prefer option 3; something else would be better.
          I agree with Hugh that "ex X[abl] Y[nom]" is a good way to translate "from X Y".
          No verb is needed.
          If you want to add a verb, it should not be esse.
          The English original has "give rise" or "lead to", not "are".
          A better fit would be fieri:




          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala fiunt

          From bad thoughts arise bad results




          One can also rewrite the whole sentence to get more options:




          Mala cogitans mala facit

          One who things bad does bad things




          Here you can replace mala ("bad things") with male ("badly") in one or both instances.




          Per cogitationes malas male accidit

          Through bad thoughts bad things happen




          The difference between these two options is whether you want to give more agency to someone doing bad or the bad events themselves.






          share|improve this answer















          Replacing esse with a dash does not feel like idiomatic Latin to me.
          One important reason is that the dash did not exist in the era of classical Latin, at least not like today.
          Using a dash instead of a "to be" is common in Russian (and maybe other Slavic languages), and I have seen a number of people who were educated in Russian using dash similarly in English and other languages.
          Therefore option 1 looks like Russian influence to me, and I don't think it sits as well with Latin.
          A much more idiomatic choice in Latin is to leave out the esse completely.



          Option 2 feels more idiomatic.
          However, it doesn't mean "bad thoughts give rise/lead to bad results".
          It means "bad thoughts are bad results".
          In fact, option 1 might be preferable as the dash could be read as "therefore" instead of a form of esse.



          I prefer option 3; something else would be better.
          I agree with Hugh that "ex X[abl] Y[nom]" is a good way to translate "from X Y".
          No verb is needed.
          If you want to add a verb, it should not be esse.
          The English original has "give rise" or "lead to", not "are".
          A better fit would be fieri:




          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala fiunt

          From bad thoughts arise bad results




          One can also rewrite the whole sentence to get more options:




          Mala cogitans mala facit

          One who things bad does bad things




          Here you can replace mala ("bad things") with male ("badly") in one or both instances.




          Per cogitationes malas male accidit

          Through bad thoughts bad things happen




          The difference between these two options is whether you want to give more agency to someone doing bad or the bad events themselves.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 8 hours ago

























          answered 11 hours ago









          Joonas IlmavirtaJoonas Ilmavirta

          49.2k1271287




          49.2k1271287












          • You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

            – Ecr ios
            11 hours ago











          • @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

            – Joonas Ilmavirta
            10 hours ago






          • 1





            Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

            – Ecr ios
            10 hours ago


















          • You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

            – Ecr ios
            11 hours ago











          • @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

            – Joonas Ilmavirta
            10 hours ago






          • 1





            Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

            – Ecr ios
            10 hours ago

















          You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

          – Ecr ios
          11 hours ago





          You are right, that seems to be really a Russian thing to use dashes instead of "to be". As for the Option 2 I messed up with the meaning needed, true. Thanks on this, too! And I really like your second option with verbs, this sounds even more emphatic, which is actually required there. Really nice! Howerver, there is still one thing I'm curious about and suspicious of: does this ex + ablative construction sound like too-English-practice? What I mean is that is it natural to use such a construction in Latin?

          – Ecr ios
          11 hours ago













          @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

          – Joonas Ilmavirta
          10 hours ago





          @Ecrios I'm glad to be able to help! The construction with ex is idiomatic and I can't see it as English influence. For example, ex oriente lux ("light [comes] from the east") seems to be too old to be affected much by English but I'm not sure of its origin. And actually, the "from X Y" construction doesn't even strike me as very idiomatic English without a verb.

          – Joonas Ilmavirta
          10 hours ago




          1




          1





          Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

          – Ecr ios
          10 hours ago






          Thanks a lot! Now my curiousity seems to be satisfied! :)

          – Ecr ios
          10 hours ago












          2














          Would you be prepared to rephrase it as "Out of bad thoughts, bad results" ? E or Ex + Ablative means 'out of,' or 'resulting from.' Is that close enough to your original idea?




          cogitationes malae – praemia mala becomes
          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala




          • no need for 'est'

          Simpler still, or perhaps only shorter, use a Past Participle to give precedence of time to the cogitationes. Lierally "Bad things having been thought, (there are) evil rewards;" or "With bad thinking, outcomes are evil."




          Malis cogitatis, praemia mala.




          This uses the Ablative Absolute construction.






          share|improve this answer























          • Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

            – Ecr ios
            11 hours ago















          2














          Would you be prepared to rephrase it as "Out of bad thoughts, bad results" ? E or Ex + Ablative means 'out of,' or 'resulting from.' Is that close enough to your original idea?




          cogitationes malae – praemia mala becomes
          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala




          • no need for 'est'

          Simpler still, or perhaps only shorter, use a Past Participle to give precedence of time to the cogitationes. Lierally "Bad things having been thought, (there are) evil rewards;" or "With bad thinking, outcomes are evil."




          Malis cogitatis, praemia mala.




          This uses the Ablative Absolute construction.






          share|improve this answer























          • Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

            – Ecr ios
            11 hours ago













          2












          2








          2







          Would you be prepared to rephrase it as "Out of bad thoughts, bad results" ? E or Ex + Ablative means 'out of,' or 'resulting from.' Is that close enough to your original idea?




          cogitationes malae – praemia mala becomes
          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala




          • no need for 'est'

          Simpler still, or perhaps only shorter, use a Past Participle to give precedence of time to the cogitationes. Lierally "Bad things having been thought, (there are) evil rewards;" or "With bad thinking, outcomes are evil."




          Malis cogitatis, praemia mala.




          This uses the Ablative Absolute construction.






          share|improve this answer













          Would you be prepared to rephrase it as "Out of bad thoughts, bad results" ? E or Ex + Ablative means 'out of,' or 'resulting from.' Is that close enough to your original idea?




          cogitationes malae – praemia mala becomes
          E cogitationibus malis praemia mala




          • no need for 'est'

          Simpler still, or perhaps only shorter, use a Past Participle to give precedence of time to the cogitationes. Lierally "Bad things having been thought, (there are) evil rewards;" or "With bad thinking, outcomes are evil."




          Malis cogitatis, praemia mala.




          This uses the Ablative Absolute construction.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 12 hours ago









          HughHugh

          5,5752616




          5,5752616












          • Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

            – Ecr ios
            11 hours ago

















          • Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

            – Ecr ios
            11 hours ago
















          Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

          – Ecr ios
          11 hours ago





          Wow, amazing! Absolutely different approach to the matter, different way of thinking! Now it sounds like a Japanese hoku to me, really brilliant! Thanks! A sight "ex altera parte"!

          – Ecr ios
          11 hours ago










          Ecr ios is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









          draft saved

          draft discarded


















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