Assigning pointers to atomic type to pointers to non atomic typeWhere is the lock for a std::atomic?Casting pointers to _Atomic pointers and _Atomic sizesHow do function pointers in C work?Are these compatible function types in C?Pointer to qualified and non-qualified type representationtechnical legality of incompatible pointer assignmentsDangerous pointer cast results in loss of const qualificationIs this behavior of clang standard compliant?How to understand the conversion rule when a “pointer to an object type” compares for eqality with a “pointer to a void”?Why are structs not allowed in equality expressions in C?What made i = i++ + 1; legal in C++17?Function without prototype called with non-compatible type

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Assigning pointers to atomic type to pointers to non atomic type


Where is the lock for a std::atomic?Casting pointers to _Atomic pointers and _Atomic sizesHow do function pointers in C work?Are these compatible function types in C?Pointer to qualified and non-qualified type representationtechnical legality of incompatible pointer assignmentsDangerous pointer cast results in loss of const qualificationIs this behavior of clang standard compliant?How to understand the conversion rule when a “pointer to an object type” compares for eqality with a “pointer to a void”?Why are structs not allowed in equality expressions in C?What made i = i++ + 1; legal in C++17?Function without prototype called with non-compatible type






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty height:90px;width:728px;box-sizing:border-box;








10















Is the behavior of this code well-defined?



#include <stdatomic.h>

const int test = 42;
const int * _Atomic atomic_int_ptr;
atomic_init(&atomic_int_ptr, &test);
const int ** int_ptr_ptr = &atomic_int_ptr;
printf("int = %dn", **int_ptr_ptr); //prints int = 42



I assigned a pointer to atomic type to a pointer to non-atomic type (the types are the same). Here are my thoughts of this example:



The Standard explicitly specify distinction of const, volatile and restrict qualifiers from the _Atomic qualifier 6.2.5(p27):




this Standard explicitly uses the phrase ‘‘atomic, qualified or
unqualified type’’ whenever the atomic version of a type is permitted
along with the other qualified versions of a type. The phrase
‘‘qualified or unqualified type’’, without specific mention of atomic,
does not include the atomic types.




Also the compatibility of qualified types is defined as 6.7.3(p10):




For two qualified types to be compatible, both shall have the
identically qualified versionof a compatible type; the order of
type qualifiers within a list of specifiers or qualifiers does
not affect the specified type.




Combining the quotes cited above I concluded that atomic and non-atomic types are compatible types. So, applying the rule of simple assigning 6.5.16.1(p1) (emp. mine):




the left operand has atomic, qualified, or unqualified pointer
type, and (considering the type the left operand would have
after lvalue conversion) both operands are pointers to qualified
or unqualified versions of compatible types, and the type pointed to by
the left has all the qualifiers of the type pointed to by the right;




So I concluded that the behavior is well defined (even in spite of assigning atomic type to a non-atomic type).



The problem with all that is that applying the rules above we can also conclude that simple assignment a non-atomic type to an atomic type is also well defined which is obviously not true since we have a dedicated generic atomic_store function for that.










share|improve this question






























    10















    Is the behavior of this code well-defined?



    #include <stdatomic.h>

    const int test = 42;
    const int * _Atomic atomic_int_ptr;
    atomic_init(&atomic_int_ptr, &test);
    const int ** int_ptr_ptr = &atomic_int_ptr;
    printf("int = %dn", **int_ptr_ptr); //prints int = 42



    I assigned a pointer to atomic type to a pointer to non-atomic type (the types are the same). Here are my thoughts of this example:



    The Standard explicitly specify distinction of const, volatile and restrict qualifiers from the _Atomic qualifier 6.2.5(p27):




    this Standard explicitly uses the phrase ‘‘atomic, qualified or
    unqualified type’’ whenever the atomic version of a type is permitted
    along with the other qualified versions of a type. The phrase
    ‘‘qualified or unqualified type’’, without specific mention of atomic,
    does not include the atomic types.




    Also the compatibility of qualified types is defined as 6.7.3(p10):




    For two qualified types to be compatible, both shall have the
    identically qualified versionof a compatible type; the order of
    type qualifiers within a list of specifiers or qualifiers does
    not affect the specified type.




    Combining the quotes cited above I concluded that atomic and non-atomic types are compatible types. So, applying the rule of simple assigning 6.5.16.1(p1) (emp. mine):




    the left operand has atomic, qualified, or unqualified pointer
    type, and (considering the type the left operand would have
    after lvalue conversion) both operands are pointers to qualified
    or unqualified versions of compatible types, and the type pointed to by
    the left has all the qualifiers of the type pointed to by the right;




    So I concluded that the behavior is well defined (even in spite of assigning atomic type to a non-atomic type).



    The problem with all that is that applying the rules above we can also conclude that simple assignment a non-atomic type to an atomic type is also well defined which is obviously not true since we have a dedicated generic atomic_store function for that.










    share|improve this question


























      10












      10








      10


      1






      Is the behavior of this code well-defined?



      #include <stdatomic.h>

      const int test = 42;
      const int * _Atomic atomic_int_ptr;
      atomic_init(&atomic_int_ptr, &test);
      const int ** int_ptr_ptr = &atomic_int_ptr;
      printf("int = %dn", **int_ptr_ptr); //prints int = 42



      I assigned a pointer to atomic type to a pointer to non-atomic type (the types are the same). Here are my thoughts of this example:



      The Standard explicitly specify distinction of const, volatile and restrict qualifiers from the _Atomic qualifier 6.2.5(p27):




      this Standard explicitly uses the phrase ‘‘atomic, qualified or
      unqualified type’’ whenever the atomic version of a type is permitted
      along with the other qualified versions of a type. The phrase
      ‘‘qualified or unqualified type’’, without specific mention of atomic,
      does not include the atomic types.




      Also the compatibility of qualified types is defined as 6.7.3(p10):




      For two qualified types to be compatible, both shall have the
      identically qualified versionof a compatible type; the order of
      type qualifiers within a list of specifiers or qualifiers does
      not affect the specified type.




      Combining the quotes cited above I concluded that atomic and non-atomic types are compatible types. So, applying the rule of simple assigning 6.5.16.1(p1) (emp. mine):




      the left operand has atomic, qualified, or unqualified pointer
      type, and (considering the type the left operand would have
      after lvalue conversion) both operands are pointers to qualified
      or unqualified versions of compatible types, and the type pointed to by
      the left has all the qualifiers of the type pointed to by the right;




      So I concluded that the behavior is well defined (even in spite of assigning atomic type to a non-atomic type).



      The problem with all that is that applying the rules above we can also conclude that simple assignment a non-atomic type to an atomic type is also well defined which is obviously not true since we have a dedicated generic atomic_store function for that.










      share|improve this question
















      Is the behavior of this code well-defined?



      #include <stdatomic.h>

      const int test = 42;
      const int * _Atomic atomic_int_ptr;
      atomic_init(&atomic_int_ptr, &test);
      const int ** int_ptr_ptr = &atomic_int_ptr;
      printf("int = %dn", **int_ptr_ptr); //prints int = 42



      I assigned a pointer to atomic type to a pointer to non-atomic type (the types are the same). Here are my thoughts of this example:



      The Standard explicitly specify distinction of const, volatile and restrict qualifiers from the _Atomic qualifier 6.2.5(p27):




      this Standard explicitly uses the phrase ‘‘atomic, qualified or
      unqualified type’’ whenever the atomic version of a type is permitted
      along with the other qualified versions of a type. The phrase
      ‘‘qualified or unqualified type’’, without specific mention of atomic,
      does not include the atomic types.




      Also the compatibility of qualified types is defined as 6.7.3(p10):




      For two qualified types to be compatible, both shall have the
      identically qualified versionof a compatible type; the order of
      type qualifiers within a list of specifiers or qualifiers does
      not affect the specified type.




      Combining the quotes cited above I concluded that atomic and non-atomic types are compatible types. So, applying the rule of simple assigning 6.5.16.1(p1) (emp. mine):




      the left operand has atomic, qualified, or unqualified pointer
      type, and (considering the type the left operand would have
      after lvalue conversion) both operands are pointers to qualified
      or unqualified versions of compatible types, and the type pointed to by
      the left has all the qualifiers of the type pointed to by the right;




      So I concluded that the behavior is well defined (even in spite of assigning atomic type to a non-atomic type).



      The problem with all that is that applying the rules above we can also conclude that simple assignment a non-atomic type to an atomic type is also well defined which is obviously not true since we have a dedicated generic atomic_store function for that.







      c concurrency language-lawyer c11 stdatomic






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 17 hours ago









      Peter Cordes

      134k18203342




      134k18203342










      asked 18 hours ago









      Some NameSome Name

      1,775418




      1,775418






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          7














          6.2.5p27:




          Further, there is the _Atomic qualifier. The presence of the _Atomic
          qualifier designates an atomic type. The size, representation, and
          alignment of an atomic type need not be the same as those of the
          corresponding unqualified type. Therefore, this Standard explicitly
          uses the phrase ''atomic, qualified or unqualified type'' whenever the
          atomic version of a type is permitted along with the other qualified
          versions of a type. The phrase ''qualified or unqualified type'',
          without specific mention of atomic, does not include the atomic types.




          I think this should make it clear that atomic-qualified types are not deemed compatible with qualified or unqualified versions of the types they're based on.






          share|improve this answer






























            6














            I C11 allows _Atomic T to have a different size and layout than T, e.g. if it's not lock-free. (See @PSkocik's answer). And also alignof(T) !=alignof(_Atomic T)`, but that's not an issue for casting pointers to objects that already exist.



            For example, the implementation could choose to put a mutex inside each atomic object, and put it first. (Instead of the usual using the address as an index into a table of locks: Where is the lock for a std::atomic?).



            Therefore _Atomic T* is not compatible with T* even in a single-threaded program.



            Merely assigning a pointer might not be UB (sorry I didn't put on my language lawyer hat), but dereferencing certainly must be.



            (In practice on real implementations, _Atomic T* and T* use the same object representation, and a single-threaded or mutex-guarded part of a program could do non-atomic access to an _Atomic object.)





            The problem with all that is that applying the rules above we can also conclude that simple assignment a non-atomic type to an atomic type is also well defined which is obviously not true since we have a dedicated generic atomic_store function for that.




            No, that reasoning is flawed.



            atomic_store(&my_atomic, 1) is equivalent to my_atomic=1; They both do an atomic store with memory_order_seq_cst. You can see this from looking at the code-gen for real compilers, e.g. x86 compilers will use an xchg instruction, or mov+mfence. Similarly, shared_var++ compiles to an atomic RMW (with mo_seq_cst).



            IDK why there's an atomic_store generic function. Maybe just for contrast / consistency with atomic_store_explicit, which lets you do atomic_store_explicit(&shared_var, 1, memory_order_release) or memory_order_relaxed to do a release or relaxed store instead of sequential-release. (On x86, just a plain store. Or on weakly-ordered ISAs, some fencing but not a full barrier.)




            For types that are lock-free, where the object representation of _Atomic T and T are identical, there's no problem in practice accessing an atomic object through a non-atomic pointer in a single-threaded program. I suspect it's still UB, though.



            C++20 is planning to introduce std::atomic_ref<T> which will let you do atomic operations on a non-atomic variable. (With no UB as long as no threads are potentially doing non-atomic access to it during the time window of being written.) This is basically a wrapper around the __atomic_* builtins in GCC for example, that std::atomic<T> is implemented on top of. (This presents some problems, like if atomic<T> needs more alignment than T, e.g. for long long or double on i386 System V. Or a struct of 2x int on most 64-bit ISAs.)



            Anyway, I'm not aware of any standards-compliant way to do similar things in portable ISO C11, but it's worth mentioning that real C compilers very much do support doing atomic operations on objects declared without _Atomic. But only using stuff like GNU C atomic builtins.:



            See Casting pointers to _Atomic pointers and _Atomic sizes : apparently casting a T* to _Atomic T* is not recommended even in GNU C. Although we don't have a definitive answer that it's actually UB.






            share|improve this answer

























            • You mentioned that atomic_store(&my_atomic, 1) is equivalent to my_atomic=1;. I tried to test a similar thing and wrote the following function: void do_test_atomic(volatile _Atomic int *ptr, int val) atomic_store(ptr, val); compiled with -O3 gave the mfence at the end of the function. godbolt.org/z/vrFCLT . (I'm not closely familar with intel x86 memory model so please correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik stores go into store buffer first so we need a fence to avoid reordering caused by the store buffer forwarding which I think explaining the mfence).

              – Some Name
              17 hours ago







            • 1





              @SomeName: yes, I said that in my answer. But you didn't try compiling *ptr=val;, which was the whole point. godbolt.org/z/OdxR_h It compiles to identical assembly, mov+mfence with gcc, or a more efficient xchg [rdi], esi) with clang. On a weakly-ordered ISA, you'd get more fencing. Or AArch64 has a special instruction for a seqeuential-release store...

              – Peter Cordes
              17 hours ago







            • 2





              "unless GNU C defines the behaviour of casting a T* to _Atomic T*" I asked about that 2 weeks ago. Was told to use the builtins: stackoverflow.com/questions/55299525/…

              – PSkocik
              17 hours ago






            • 1





              @SomeName: no, I meant it's equivalent in the C abstract machine. (And separately that you can check it with whatever compiler you want on whatever architecture you want, x86 being one example.) ISO C11 "overloads" assignment and various other operators for _Atomic types.

              – Peter Cordes
              16 hours ago







            • 1





              @AndrewHenle: Oh, you're right. A machine with alignment-required 8-byte loads could fault on an alignof(T) = 4 struct of size=8. Will fix later when I ahve time.

              – Peter Cordes
              11 hours ago












            Your Answer






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            7














            6.2.5p27:




            Further, there is the _Atomic qualifier. The presence of the _Atomic
            qualifier designates an atomic type. The size, representation, and
            alignment of an atomic type need not be the same as those of the
            corresponding unqualified type. Therefore, this Standard explicitly
            uses the phrase ''atomic, qualified or unqualified type'' whenever the
            atomic version of a type is permitted along with the other qualified
            versions of a type. The phrase ''qualified or unqualified type'',
            without specific mention of atomic, does not include the atomic types.




            I think this should make it clear that atomic-qualified types are not deemed compatible with qualified or unqualified versions of the types they're based on.






            share|improve this answer



























              7














              6.2.5p27:




              Further, there is the _Atomic qualifier. The presence of the _Atomic
              qualifier designates an atomic type. The size, representation, and
              alignment of an atomic type need not be the same as those of the
              corresponding unqualified type. Therefore, this Standard explicitly
              uses the phrase ''atomic, qualified or unqualified type'' whenever the
              atomic version of a type is permitted along with the other qualified
              versions of a type. The phrase ''qualified or unqualified type'',
              without specific mention of atomic, does not include the atomic types.




              I think this should make it clear that atomic-qualified types are not deemed compatible with qualified or unqualified versions of the types they're based on.






              share|improve this answer

























                7












                7








                7







                6.2.5p27:




                Further, there is the _Atomic qualifier. The presence of the _Atomic
                qualifier designates an atomic type. The size, representation, and
                alignment of an atomic type need not be the same as those of the
                corresponding unqualified type. Therefore, this Standard explicitly
                uses the phrase ''atomic, qualified or unqualified type'' whenever the
                atomic version of a type is permitted along with the other qualified
                versions of a type. The phrase ''qualified or unqualified type'',
                without specific mention of atomic, does not include the atomic types.




                I think this should make it clear that atomic-qualified types are not deemed compatible with qualified or unqualified versions of the types they're based on.






                share|improve this answer













                6.2.5p27:




                Further, there is the _Atomic qualifier. The presence of the _Atomic
                qualifier designates an atomic type. The size, representation, and
                alignment of an atomic type need not be the same as those of the
                corresponding unqualified type. Therefore, this Standard explicitly
                uses the phrase ''atomic, qualified or unqualified type'' whenever the
                atomic version of a type is permitted along with the other qualified
                versions of a type. The phrase ''qualified or unqualified type'',
                without specific mention of atomic, does not include the atomic types.




                I think this should make it clear that atomic-qualified types are not deemed compatible with qualified or unqualified versions of the types they're based on.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 17 hours ago









                PSkocikPSkocik

                35k65579




                35k65579























                    6














                    I C11 allows _Atomic T to have a different size and layout than T, e.g. if it's not lock-free. (See @PSkocik's answer). And also alignof(T) !=alignof(_Atomic T)`, but that's not an issue for casting pointers to objects that already exist.



                    For example, the implementation could choose to put a mutex inside each atomic object, and put it first. (Instead of the usual using the address as an index into a table of locks: Where is the lock for a std::atomic?).



                    Therefore _Atomic T* is not compatible with T* even in a single-threaded program.



                    Merely assigning a pointer might not be UB (sorry I didn't put on my language lawyer hat), but dereferencing certainly must be.



                    (In practice on real implementations, _Atomic T* and T* use the same object representation, and a single-threaded or mutex-guarded part of a program could do non-atomic access to an _Atomic object.)





                    The problem with all that is that applying the rules above we can also conclude that simple assignment a non-atomic type to an atomic type is also well defined which is obviously not true since we have a dedicated generic atomic_store function for that.




                    No, that reasoning is flawed.



                    atomic_store(&my_atomic, 1) is equivalent to my_atomic=1; They both do an atomic store with memory_order_seq_cst. You can see this from looking at the code-gen for real compilers, e.g. x86 compilers will use an xchg instruction, or mov+mfence. Similarly, shared_var++ compiles to an atomic RMW (with mo_seq_cst).



                    IDK why there's an atomic_store generic function. Maybe just for contrast / consistency with atomic_store_explicit, which lets you do atomic_store_explicit(&shared_var, 1, memory_order_release) or memory_order_relaxed to do a release or relaxed store instead of sequential-release. (On x86, just a plain store. Or on weakly-ordered ISAs, some fencing but not a full barrier.)




                    For types that are lock-free, where the object representation of _Atomic T and T are identical, there's no problem in practice accessing an atomic object through a non-atomic pointer in a single-threaded program. I suspect it's still UB, though.



                    C++20 is planning to introduce std::atomic_ref<T> which will let you do atomic operations on a non-atomic variable. (With no UB as long as no threads are potentially doing non-atomic access to it during the time window of being written.) This is basically a wrapper around the __atomic_* builtins in GCC for example, that std::atomic<T> is implemented on top of. (This presents some problems, like if atomic<T> needs more alignment than T, e.g. for long long or double on i386 System V. Or a struct of 2x int on most 64-bit ISAs.)



                    Anyway, I'm not aware of any standards-compliant way to do similar things in portable ISO C11, but it's worth mentioning that real C compilers very much do support doing atomic operations on objects declared without _Atomic. But only using stuff like GNU C atomic builtins.:



                    See Casting pointers to _Atomic pointers and _Atomic sizes : apparently casting a T* to _Atomic T* is not recommended even in GNU C. Although we don't have a definitive answer that it's actually UB.






                    share|improve this answer

























                    • You mentioned that atomic_store(&my_atomic, 1) is equivalent to my_atomic=1;. I tried to test a similar thing and wrote the following function: void do_test_atomic(volatile _Atomic int *ptr, int val) atomic_store(ptr, val); compiled with -O3 gave the mfence at the end of the function. godbolt.org/z/vrFCLT . (I'm not closely familar with intel x86 memory model so please correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik stores go into store buffer first so we need a fence to avoid reordering caused by the store buffer forwarding which I think explaining the mfence).

                      – Some Name
                      17 hours ago







                    • 1





                      @SomeName: yes, I said that in my answer. But you didn't try compiling *ptr=val;, which was the whole point. godbolt.org/z/OdxR_h It compiles to identical assembly, mov+mfence with gcc, or a more efficient xchg [rdi], esi) with clang. On a weakly-ordered ISA, you'd get more fencing. Or AArch64 has a special instruction for a seqeuential-release store...

                      – Peter Cordes
                      17 hours ago







                    • 2





                      "unless GNU C defines the behaviour of casting a T* to _Atomic T*" I asked about that 2 weeks ago. Was told to use the builtins: stackoverflow.com/questions/55299525/…

                      – PSkocik
                      17 hours ago






                    • 1





                      @SomeName: no, I meant it's equivalent in the C abstract machine. (And separately that you can check it with whatever compiler you want on whatever architecture you want, x86 being one example.) ISO C11 "overloads" assignment and various other operators for _Atomic types.

                      – Peter Cordes
                      16 hours ago







                    • 1





                      @AndrewHenle: Oh, you're right. A machine with alignment-required 8-byte loads could fault on an alignof(T) = 4 struct of size=8. Will fix later when I ahve time.

                      – Peter Cordes
                      11 hours ago
















                    6














                    I C11 allows _Atomic T to have a different size and layout than T, e.g. if it's not lock-free. (See @PSkocik's answer). And also alignof(T) !=alignof(_Atomic T)`, but that's not an issue for casting pointers to objects that already exist.



                    For example, the implementation could choose to put a mutex inside each atomic object, and put it first. (Instead of the usual using the address as an index into a table of locks: Where is the lock for a std::atomic?).



                    Therefore _Atomic T* is not compatible with T* even in a single-threaded program.



                    Merely assigning a pointer might not be UB (sorry I didn't put on my language lawyer hat), but dereferencing certainly must be.



                    (In practice on real implementations, _Atomic T* and T* use the same object representation, and a single-threaded or mutex-guarded part of a program could do non-atomic access to an _Atomic object.)





                    The problem with all that is that applying the rules above we can also conclude that simple assignment a non-atomic type to an atomic type is also well defined which is obviously not true since we have a dedicated generic atomic_store function for that.




                    No, that reasoning is flawed.



                    atomic_store(&my_atomic, 1) is equivalent to my_atomic=1; They both do an atomic store with memory_order_seq_cst. You can see this from looking at the code-gen for real compilers, e.g. x86 compilers will use an xchg instruction, or mov+mfence. Similarly, shared_var++ compiles to an atomic RMW (with mo_seq_cst).



                    IDK why there's an atomic_store generic function. Maybe just for contrast / consistency with atomic_store_explicit, which lets you do atomic_store_explicit(&shared_var, 1, memory_order_release) or memory_order_relaxed to do a release or relaxed store instead of sequential-release. (On x86, just a plain store. Or on weakly-ordered ISAs, some fencing but not a full barrier.)




                    For types that are lock-free, where the object representation of _Atomic T and T are identical, there's no problem in practice accessing an atomic object through a non-atomic pointer in a single-threaded program. I suspect it's still UB, though.



                    C++20 is planning to introduce std::atomic_ref<T> which will let you do atomic operations on a non-atomic variable. (With no UB as long as no threads are potentially doing non-atomic access to it during the time window of being written.) This is basically a wrapper around the __atomic_* builtins in GCC for example, that std::atomic<T> is implemented on top of. (This presents some problems, like if atomic<T> needs more alignment than T, e.g. for long long or double on i386 System V. Or a struct of 2x int on most 64-bit ISAs.)



                    Anyway, I'm not aware of any standards-compliant way to do similar things in portable ISO C11, but it's worth mentioning that real C compilers very much do support doing atomic operations on objects declared without _Atomic. But only using stuff like GNU C atomic builtins.:



                    See Casting pointers to _Atomic pointers and _Atomic sizes : apparently casting a T* to _Atomic T* is not recommended even in GNU C. Although we don't have a definitive answer that it's actually UB.






                    share|improve this answer

























                    • You mentioned that atomic_store(&my_atomic, 1) is equivalent to my_atomic=1;. I tried to test a similar thing and wrote the following function: void do_test_atomic(volatile _Atomic int *ptr, int val) atomic_store(ptr, val); compiled with -O3 gave the mfence at the end of the function. godbolt.org/z/vrFCLT . (I'm not closely familar with intel x86 memory model so please correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik stores go into store buffer first so we need a fence to avoid reordering caused by the store buffer forwarding which I think explaining the mfence).

                      – Some Name
                      17 hours ago







                    • 1





                      @SomeName: yes, I said that in my answer. But you didn't try compiling *ptr=val;, which was the whole point. godbolt.org/z/OdxR_h It compiles to identical assembly, mov+mfence with gcc, or a more efficient xchg [rdi], esi) with clang. On a weakly-ordered ISA, you'd get more fencing. Or AArch64 has a special instruction for a seqeuential-release store...

                      – Peter Cordes
                      17 hours ago







                    • 2





                      "unless GNU C defines the behaviour of casting a T* to _Atomic T*" I asked about that 2 weeks ago. Was told to use the builtins: stackoverflow.com/questions/55299525/…

                      – PSkocik
                      17 hours ago






                    • 1





                      @SomeName: no, I meant it's equivalent in the C abstract machine. (And separately that you can check it with whatever compiler you want on whatever architecture you want, x86 being one example.) ISO C11 "overloads" assignment and various other operators for _Atomic types.

                      – Peter Cordes
                      16 hours ago







                    • 1





                      @AndrewHenle: Oh, you're right. A machine with alignment-required 8-byte loads could fault on an alignof(T) = 4 struct of size=8. Will fix later when I ahve time.

                      – Peter Cordes
                      11 hours ago














                    6












                    6








                    6







                    I C11 allows _Atomic T to have a different size and layout than T, e.g. if it's not lock-free. (See @PSkocik's answer). And also alignof(T) !=alignof(_Atomic T)`, but that's not an issue for casting pointers to objects that already exist.



                    For example, the implementation could choose to put a mutex inside each atomic object, and put it first. (Instead of the usual using the address as an index into a table of locks: Where is the lock for a std::atomic?).



                    Therefore _Atomic T* is not compatible with T* even in a single-threaded program.



                    Merely assigning a pointer might not be UB (sorry I didn't put on my language lawyer hat), but dereferencing certainly must be.



                    (In practice on real implementations, _Atomic T* and T* use the same object representation, and a single-threaded or mutex-guarded part of a program could do non-atomic access to an _Atomic object.)





                    The problem with all that is that applying the rules above we can also conclude that simple assignment a non-atomic type to an atomic type is also well defined which is obviously not true since we have a dedicated generic atomic_store function for that.




                    No, that reasoning is flawed.



                    atomic_store(&my_atomic, 1) is equivalent to my_atomic=1; They both do an atomic store with memory_order_seq_cst. You can see this from looking at the code-gen for real compilers, e.g. x86 compilers will use an xchg instruction, or mov+mfence. Similarly, shared_var++ compiles to an atomic RMW (with mo_seq_cst).



                    IDK why there's an atomic_store generic function. Maybe just for contrast / consistency with atomic_store_explicit, which lets you do atomic_store_explicit(&shared_var, 1, memory_order_release) or memory_order_relaxed to do a release or relaxed store instead of sequential-release. (On x86, just a plain store. Or on weakly-ordered ISAs, some fencing but not a full barrier.)




                    For types that are lock-free, where the object representation of _Atomic T and T are identical, there's no problem in practice accessing an atomic object through a non-atomic pointer in a single-threaded program. I suspect it's still UB, though.



                    C++20 is planning to introduce std::atomic_ref<T> which will let you do atomic operations on a non-atomic variable. (With no UB as long as no threads are potentially doing non-atomic access to it during the time window of being written.) This is basically a wrapper around the __atomic_* builtins in GCC for example, that std::atomic<T> is implemented on top of. (This presents some problems, like if atomic<T> needs more alignment than T, e.g. for long long or double on i386 System V. Or a struct of 2x int on most 64-bit ISAs.)



                    Anyway, I'm not aware of any standards-compliant way to do similar things in portable ISO C11, but it's worth mentioning that real C compilers very much do support doing atomic operations on objects declared without _Atomic. But only using stuff like GNU C atomic builtins.:



                    See Casting pointers to _Atomic pointers and _Atomic sizes : apparently casting a T* to _Atomic T* is not recommended even in GNU C. Although we don't have a definitive answer that it's actually UB.






                    share|improve this answer















                    I C11 allows _Atomic T to have a different size and layout than T, e.g. if it's not lock-free. (See @PSkocik's answer). And also alignof(T) !=alignof(_Atomic T)`, but that's not an issue for casting pointers to objects that already exist.



                    For example, the implementation could choose to put a mutex inside each atomic object, and put it first. (Instead of the usual using the address as an index into a table of locks: Where is the lock for a std::atomic?).



                    Therefore _Atomic T* is not compatible with T* even in a single-threaded program.



                    Merely assigning a pointer might not be UB (sorry I didn't put on my language lawyer hat), but dereferencing certainly must be.



                    (In practice on real implementations, _Atomic T* and T* use the same object representation, and a single-threaded or mutex-guarded part of a program could do non-atomic access to an _Atomic object.)





                    The problem with all that is that applying the rules above we can also conclude that simple assignment a non-atomic type to an atomic type is also well defined which is obviously not true since we have a dedicated generic atomic_store function for that.




                    No, that reasoning is flawed.



                    atomic_store(&my_atomic, 1) is equivalent to my_atomic=1; They both do an atomic store with memory_order_seq_cst. You can see this from looking at the code-gen for real compilers, e.g. x86 compilers will use an xchg instruction, or mov+mfence. Similarly, shared_var++ compiles to an atomic RMW (with mo_seq_cst).



                    IDK why there's an atomic_store generic function. Maybe just for contrast / consistency with atomic_store_explicit, which lets you do atomic_store_explicit(&shared_var, 1, memory_order_release) or memory_order_relaxed to do a release or relaxed store instead of sequential-release. (On x86, just a plain store. Or on weakly-ordered ISAs, some fencing but not a full barrier.)




                    For types that are lock-free, where the object representation of _Atomic T and T are identical, there's no problem in practice accessing an atomic object through a non-atomic pointer in a single-threaded program. I suspect it's still UB, though.



                    C++20 is planning to introduce std::atomic_ref<T> which will let you do atomic operations on a non-atomic variable. (With no UB as long as no threads are potentially doing non-atomic access to it during the time window of being written.) This is basically a wrapper around the __atomic_* builtins in GCC for example, that std::atomic<T> is implemented on top of. (This presents some problems, like if atomic<T> needs more alignment than T, e.g. for long long or double on i386 System V. Or a struct of 2x int on most 64-bit ISAs.)



                    Anyway, I'm not aware of any standards-compliant way to do similar things in portable ISO C11, but it's worth mentioning that real C compilers very much do support doing atomic operations on objects declared without _Atomic. But only using stuff like GNU C atomic builtins.:



                    See Casting pointers to _Atomic pointers and _Atomic sizes : apparently casting a T* to _Atomic T* is not recommended even in GNU C. Although we don't have a definitive answer that it's actually UB.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 16 hours ago

























                    answered 17 hours ago









                    Peter CordesPeter Cordes

                    134k18203342




                    134k18203342












                    • You mentioned that atomic_store(&my_atomic, 1) is equivalent to my_atomic=1;. I tried to test a similar thing and wrote the following function: void do_test_atomic(volatile _Atomic int *ptr, int val) atomic_store(ptr, val); compiled with -O3 gave the mfence at the end of the function. godbolt.org/z/vrFCLT . (I'm not closely familar with intel x86 memory model so please correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik stores go into store buffer first so we need a fence to avoid reordering caused by the store buffer forwarding which I think explaining the mfence).

                      – Some Name
                      17 hours ago







                    • 1





                      @SomeName: yes, I said that in my answer. But you didn't try compiling *ptr=val;, which was the whole point. godbolt.org/z/OdxR_h It compiles to identical assembly, mov+mfence with gcc, or a more efficient xchg [rdi], esi) with clang. On a weakly-ordered ISA, you'd get more fencing. Or AArch64 has a special instruction for a seqeuential-release store...

                      – Peter Cordes
                      17 hours ago







                    • 2





                      "unless GNU C defines the behaviour of casting a T* to _Atomic T*" I asked about that 2 weeks ago. Was told to use the builtins: stackoverflow.com/questions/55299525/…

                      – PSkocik
                      17 hours ago






                    • 1





                      @SomeName: no, I meant it's equivalent in the C abstract machine. (And separately that you can check it with whatever compiler you want on whatever architecture you want, x86 being one example.) ISO C11 "overloads" assignment and various other operators for _Atomic types.

                      – Peter Cordes
                      16 hours ago







                    • 1





                      @AndrewHenle: Oh, you're right. A machine with alignment-required 8-byte loads could fault on an alignof(T) = 4 struct of size=8. Will fix later when I ahve time.

                      – Peter Cordes
                      11 hours ago


















                    • You mentioned that atomic_store(&my_atomic, 1) is equivalent to my_atomic=1;. I tried to test a similar thing and wrote the following function: void do_test_atomic(volatile _Atomic int *ptr, int val) atomic_store(ptr, val); compiled with -O3 gave the mfence at the end of the function. godbolt.org/z/vrFCLT . (I'm not closely familar with intel x86 memory model so please correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik stores go into store buffer first so we need a fence to avoid reordering caused by the store buffer forwarding which I think explaining the mfence).

                      – Some Name
                      17 hours ago







                    • 1





                      @SomeName: yes, I said that in my answer. But you didn't try compiling *ptr=val;, which was the whole point. godbolt.org/z/OdxR_h It compiles to identical assembly, mov+mfence with gcc, or a more efficient xchg [rdi], esi) with clang. On a weakly-ordered ISA, you'd get more fencing. Or AArch64 has a special instruction for a seqeuential-release store...

                      – Peter Cordes
                      17 hours ago







                    • 2





                      "unless GNU C defines the behaviour of casting a T* to _Atomic T*" I asked about that 2 weeks ago. Was told to use the builtins: stackoverflow.com/questions/55299525/…

                      – PSkocik
                      17 hours ago






                    • 1





                      @SomeName: no, I meant it's equivalent in the C abstract machine. (And separately that you can check it with whatever compiler you want on whatever architecture you want, x86 being one example.) ISO C11 "overloads" assignment and various other operators for _Atomic types.

                      – Peter Cordes
                      16 hours ago







                    • 1





                      @AndrewHenle: Oh, you're right. A machine with alignment-required 8-byte loads could fault on an alignof(T) = 4 struct of size=8. Will fix later when I ahve time.

                      – Peter Cordes
                      11 hours ago

















                    You mentioned that atomic_store(&my_atomic, 1) is equivalent to my_atomic=1;. I tried to test a similar thing and wrote the following function: void do_test_atomic(volatile _Atomic int *ptr, int val) atomic_store(ptr, val); compiled with -O3 gave the mfence at the end of the function. godbolt.org/z/vrFCLT . (I'm not closely familar with intel x86 memory model so please correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik stores go into store buffer first so we need a fence to avoid reordering caused by the store buffer forwarding which I think explaining the mfence).

                    – Some Name
                    17 hours ago






                    You mentioned that atomic_store(&my_atomic, 1) is equivalent to my_atomic=1;. I tried to test a similar thing and wrote the following function: void do_test_atomic(volatile _Atomic int *ptr, int val) atomic_store(ptr, val); compiled with -O3 gave the mfence at the end of the function. godbolt.org/z/vrFCLT . (I'm not closely familar with intel x86 memory model so please correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik stores go into store buffer first so we need a fence to avoid reordering caused by the store buffer forwarding which I think explaining the mfence).

                    – Some Name
                    17 hours ago





                    1




                    1





                    @SomeName: yes, I said that in my answer. But you didn't try compiling *ptr=val;, which was the whole point. godbolt.org/z/OdxR_h It compiles to identical assembly, mov+mfence with gcc, or a more efficient xchg [rdi], esi) with clang. On a weakly-ordered ISA, you'd get more fencing. Or AArch64 has a special instruction for a seqeuential-release store...

                    – Peter Cordes
                    17 hours ago






                    @SomeName: yes, I said that in my answer. But you didn't try compiling *ptr=val;, which was the whole point. godbolt.org/z/OdxR_h It compiles to identical assembly, mov+mfence with gcc, or a more efficient xchg [rdi], esi) with clang. On a weakly-ordered ISA, you'd get more fencing. Or AArch64 has a special instruction for a seqeuential-release store...

                    – Peter Cordes
                    17 hours ago





                    2




                    2





                    "unless GNU C defines the behaviour of casting a T* to _Atomic T*" I asked about that 2 weeks ago. Was told to use the builtins: stackoverflow.com/questions/55299525/…

                    – PSkocik
                    17 hours ago





                    "unless GNU C defines the behaviour of casting a T* to _Atomic T*" I asked about that 2 weeks ago. Was told to use the builtins: stackoverflow.com/questions/55299525/…

                    – PSkocik
                    17 hours ago




                    1




                    1





                    @SomeName: no, I meant it's equivalent in the C abstract machine. (And separately that you can check it with whatever compiler you want on whatever architecture you want, x86 being one example.) ISO C11 "overloads" assignment and various other operators for _Atomic types.

                    – Peter Cordes
                    16 hours ago






                    @SomeName: no, I meant it's equivalent in the C abstract machine. (And separately that you can check it with whatever compiler you want on whatever architecture you want, x86 being one example.) ISO C11 "overloads" assignment and various other operators for _Atomic types.

                    – Peter Cordes
                    16 hours ago





                    1




                    1





                    @AndrewHenle: Oh, you're right. A machine with alignment-required 8-byte loads could fault on an alignof(T) = 4 struct of size=8. Will fix later when I ahve time.

                    – Peter Cordes
                    11 hours ago






                    @AndrewHenle: Oh, you're right. A machine with alignment-required 8-byte loads could fault on an alignof(T) = 4 struct of size=8. Will fix later when I ahve time.

                    – Peter Cordes
                    11 hours ago


















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